Joseph Smith's account referring to Cumorah

Here's an interesting reference to Joseph Smith teaching about the Hill Cumorah in 1835 or 1836.

Joseph Curtis reminiscences and diary, October 1839-March 1881. This passage was recorded no later than October 1839.

In the spring of 1835 Joseph smith in Company with his father & mother & some others came to Michigan & paid us a visit-in a meeting stated the reason he preached the doctrin he did I will state a few things according to my memory-as a revival of some of the secs was going on some of this fathers family joined in with the revival himself being quite young he feeling an anxiety to be religious his mind some what troubled this scripture came to his mind which sayes if a man lack wisdom let him ask of god who giveth liberaly and upbraideth not believing it he went with a determinatio[n] to obtain to enquire of the lord himself after some struggle the Lord manifested to him that the different sects were rong also that the Lord had a great work for him to do-it worried his mind-he told his father-his father told him to do as the Lord manifested - had other manifestations saw an angel with a view of the hill cumorah & the plates of gold had certain instructions got the plates & by the assistance of the urim & Thumin translated them by the gift & power of God also stated he had done nothing except he more than he was commanded to do & for this his name was cast out as evil for this he was persecuted[.]



[Note: some think the visit was October 1834. Joseph could have made multiple visits to Michigan.]

You can see this reference in the Church History library. Search for Joseph Curtis reminiscences and go to page 12/208.

The following link may or may not work:

https://catalog.lds.org/assets/24463061-0287-4460-8a45-62d078b75991/0/11

Martin Harris - no on else saw the plates

Martin Harris

In January 1859, Martin Harris gave an interview to a magazine titled Tiffany's Monthly. During the interview, he made this statement.

"These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey, myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them.”

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tiffany%27s_Monthly/Volume_5/Number_4/Mormonism--No._II

This raises a serious question about the traditional narrative regarding the golden plates.

Martin knew about the Eight Witnesses. He knew each of them personally, and he knew their testimony was included in every copy of the Book of Mormon right next to his own testimony as one of the Three Witnesses. 

Why would he say no one but the Three Witnesses (and Joseph Smith) ever saw the plates?

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The traditional narrative teaches that there was only one set of golden plates. If that's true, then this statement by Martin Harris is false. 

(Some might say he was referring only to the experience of the Three Witnesses, but that's changing his unambiguous statement. His words speak for themselves.)

Here is a depiction and explanation of the traditional narrative.

In this scenario, Moroni somehow combined the abridged plates with the original plates of Nephi (commonly called the "small plates") and put them into the stone box on the "hill in New York" where Joseph found them. 

The Title Page was the last leaf of the plates. It lists the contents of the plates but doesn't mention any original plates. 

In Harmony, Oliver attempted to translate but was unable to. In D&C 9, the Lord told him:

I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.

2 And then, behold, other records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.

"This record" refers to the one and only set of plates Joseph ever had. "Other records" refers to unknown materials, or maybe the Book of Abraham.

When Joseph and Oliver neared the end of the plates, they considered retranslating the Book of Lehi (the lost 116 pages), the Lord told them not to. Instead, they had to translated the "plates of Nephi" (D&C 10).

These plates were contained in the set of plates they already had, but apparently they didn't know it. (Lately, the historians tell us Joseph didn't even use the plates, which makes D&C 10 difficult to understand. Why would the Lord refer to the engravings on the plates of Nephi if Joseph wasn't even looking at the plates? A topic for another time.)

Joseph continued translating the abridged plates in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Before they left Harmony, Joseph and Oliver translated the Title Page--the last leaf of the plates--but somehow Joseph skipped over the plates of Nephi that were supposedly included in this set of plates.

Before leaving Harmony, Joseph gave the original plates to a divine messenger. On the road to Fayette, Joseph, Oliver and David encountered the messenger, who was one of the Three Nephites. David Whitmer reported that the man said he was going to Cumorah, not Fayette.

But David Whitmer lied or had a bad memory because actually, the messenger was taking the plates directly to Fayette.

Both the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses saw this same set of plates. 

And Martin Harris lied to Tiffany's Monthly.

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The new scenario, which I refer to as "two sets of plates," is quite different. 

In this scenario, Moroni put only the abridged plates into the stone box on the Hill Cumorah where Joseph found them. He did not put the plates of Nephi into the stone box; instead, those plates remained with all the other original Nephite records in the repository in a separate department of the hill.

The Title Page was the last leaf of the plates. It lists the contents of the plates but doesn't mention any original plates. 

In Harmony, Oliver attempted to translate but was unable to. In D&C 9, the Lord told him:

I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.

2 And then, behold, other records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.

"This record" refers to the original set of plates; i.e., the abridged plates that Moroni put in the stone box. "Other records" refers to the plates of Nephi, of which Joseph and Oliver knew nothing at the time.

When Joseph and Oliver neared the end of the plates, they considered retranslating the Book of Lehi (the lost 116 pages), the Lord told them not to. Instead, they had to translate the "plates of Nephi" (D&C 10).

Now they knew what "other records" referred to. Except they didn't have the plates of Nephi--yet.

Joseph continued translating the abridged plates in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Before they left Harmony, Joseph and Oliver translated the Title Page--the last leaf of the plates. They were finished with those plates. They had translated everything Moroni put in the stone box, except for the sealed portion.

Before leaving Harmony, Joseph gave the original plates to a divine messenger. On the road to Fayette, Joseph, Oliver and David encountered the messenger, who was one of the Three Nephites. David Whitmer reported that the man said he was going to Cumorah, not Fayette.

David told the truth.

The messenger took the original plates to the depository of Nephite records in Cumorah, picked up the small plates of Nephi, took them to Fayette, and gave them to Joseph. That's why Joseph and Oliver translated the plates of Nephi in Fayette.

The Three Witnesses saw the original plates, brought by the angel (presumably Moroni). 

The Eight Witnesses saw the plates of Nephi, brought by one of the Three Nephites (as Joseph's mother explained).

Martin Harris was not a liar. He spoke the truth to Tiffany's Monthly.

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If you're not familiar with the "two sets of plates" scenario, there's a diagram on this blog. Look under "Pages" in the menu in the right column.

There are lots of other facts that lead to the "two sets of plates" scenario, as described in my book, Whatever Happened to the Golden Plates.

As always, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I'm simply presenting facts so you can make an informed decision. 

I'm offering explanations that make sense to me, but don't take my word for it or anything else. I welcome alternative explanations, if any. Just email them and I'll post them in this blog.

Cumorah depository - Edward Stevenson's account

Edward Stevenson, an ancestor of Elder Gary Stevenson of the Quorum of the Twelve, interviewed David Whitmer in 1877. In his Reminiscences, Stevenson quoted Brigham Young's statement about the depository of Nephite records inside the Hill Cumorah in New York.

This is the depository that Moron described in Mormon 6:6.

Stevenson wrote,

It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light.

You can read it here:

https://archive.org/details/reminiscencesofj00stev/page/n17
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The existence of the depository of Nephite records in the New York Cumorah was attested by several of Joseph's contemporaries. 

Yet we never hears about it in books such as Saints or in any modern Church manuals, artwork, etc.

Why is that?

Because of M2C.

A New York depository contradicts M2C because the M2C intellectuals and their followers believe the "real" Cumorah is in southern Mexico.

For that reason, the M2C intellectuals claim David Whitmer was wrong. Brigham Young was wrong. Heber C. Kimball was wrong. Wilford Woodruff was wrong. Ultimately, they claim Oliver Cowdery was wrong.
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There's a fun new film coming out about the Witnesses.

https://witnessesfilm.com/

It is being produced by M2C intellectuals. It will be fascinating to see how they treat this topic.